zimmer vs.martinez -- what do you think?

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stupid happy
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zimmer vs.martinez -- what do you think?

Post by stupid happy » Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:40 am

did y'all SEE THAT SHIT yesterday during the ny/boston game??? okay, let's here your opinions...whose fault was that? did zimmer deserve what he got for trying to take on pedro, or should pedro be blamed for throwing a 72-year-old guy to the ground?

my first reaction was to feel sorry for zim...but now i'm not so sure, because zimmer says he was indeed gunning for martinez....nothing like a fence-squatter, eh?

still, it was the ugliest thing i've ever seen in baseball. i never saw marichal try to bean roseboro with a bat, but for me, that'd be the only other moment that might qualilfy as the nastiest in baseball history. clemens firing that splintered bat at piazza was pretty disturbing, but since i can't stand piazza, and knowing that the bat didn't really come anywhere near him, for some reason i can dismiss that.

okay, DISCUSS....
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Matty
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Post by Matty » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:09 am

Pedro stood, watched Zimmer come, and from what I saw, appeared to be saying "What? What?". He grabbed the man by the head and tossed him to the ground. You don't do that sort of a thing unless you're trying to drop a person, and hard.

Zimmer was out of line. He shouldn't have charged Pedro, no question. But he's 72. He doesn't move that fast. Pedro saw him coming and very deliberately dropped him, hard. No reason he couldn't have just gotten out of the way, or even done the same thing without quite so much force.

As far as that game is concerned, Pedro is an embarassment to baseball.




...and I'm from Boston. It hurts to defend a Yankee. It really does.
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stupid happy
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Post by stupid happy » Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:49 pm

that was my immediate feeling. and for the most part, i still feel that way. that was frightening and awful and it made my heart sink as i watched it.

still, there would've been none of that had zimmer not rushed over there, looking for a confrontation. he should have been one of the peacemakers in that scrum.

it's just a hard call.
Matty wrote:Pedro stood, watched Zimmer come, and from what I saw, appeared to be saying "What? What?". He grabbed the man by the head and tossed him to the ground. You don't do that sort of a thing unless you're trying to drop a person, and hard.

Zimmer was out of line. He shouldn't have charged Pedro, no question. But he's 72. He doesn't move that fast. Pedro saw him coming and very deliberately dropped him, hard. No reason he couldn't have just gotten out of the way, or even done the same thing without quite so much force.

As far as that game is concerned, Pedro is an embarassment to baseball.




...and I'm from Boston. It hurts to defend a Yankee. It really does.
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BigMike
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Post by BigMike » Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:57 pm

I have a problem with Zimmer's actions. He comes charging out and heads straight for the opposing teams' starting pitcher. That's a bit aggressive in my book. Pedro probably was concerned about his ability to pitch if it got into a scrum, so he side-stepped Zimmer and dragged him down. It could have been a lot worse had they gotten into a slug fest (not a fair one, 'cause I'm not sure Zimmer's arms are long enough to reach past that belly of his).

Bottom line, he charged Pedro, Pedro doesn't know what's on Zimmer's mind, other than the fact that he's coming at him aggressively, Pedro defends himself with reasonable force, problem solved. If Zimmer doesn't want to get involved, he should not be charging the opposing teams starter.

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Post by stupid happy » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:00 pm

i dig your comments, big mike. aggression never solved anything, and pedro only had a split-second or two to take it all in. the reaction was likely more reflexive than anything, and i can't say i wouldn't have done the same thing, particularly with the emotions of the moment.

and might i say, that's an unlikely choice for an avatar for you -- i'm surprised (and amused)!!! :wink:
BigMike wrote:I have a problem with Zimmer's actions. He comes charging out and heads straight for the opposing teams' starting pitcher. That's a bit aggressive in my book. Pedro probably was concerned about his ability to pitch if it got into a scrum, so he side-stepped Zimmer and dragged him down. It could have been a lot worse had they gotten into a slug fest (not a fair one, 'cause I'm not sure Zimmer's arms are long enough to reach past that belly of his).

Bottom line, he charged Pedro, Pedro doesn't know what's on Zimmer's mind, other than the fact that he's coming at him aggressively, Pedro defends himself with reasonable force, problem solved. If Zimmer doesn't want to get involved, he should not be charging the opposing teams starter.
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Post by BigMike » Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:43 pm

I don't know...I have relatively short dark hair, can't sing for a damn, smoked (until recently), and told someone I'd be rendered speechless and be only able to weakly wave a finger to tell them they were #1 recently. Seems to be pretty accurate. :lol:

stupid happy wrote:i dig your comments, big mike. aggression never solved anything, and pedro only had a split-second or two to take it all in. the reaction was likely more reflexive than anything, and i can't say i wouldn't have done the same thing, particularly with the emotions of the moment.

and might i say, that's an unlikely choice for an avatar for you -- i'm surprised (and amused)!!! :wink:
BigMike wrote:I have a problem with Zimmer's actions. He comes charging out and heads straight for the opposing teams' starting pitcher. That's a bit aggressive in my book. Pedro probably was concerned about his ability to pitch if it got into a scrum, so he side-stepped Zimmer and dragged him down. It could have been a lot worse had they gotten into a slug fest (not a fair one, 'cause I'm not sure Zimmer's arms are long enough to reach past that belly of his).

Bottom line, he charged Pedro, Pedro doesn't know what's on Zimmer's mind, other than the fact that he's coming at him aggressively, Pedro defends himself with reasonable force, problem solved. If Zimmer doesn't want to get involved, he should not be charging the opposing teams starter.

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Post by Matty » Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:07 pm

stupid happy wrote:the reaction was likely more reflexive than anything
Untrue.
Pedro knew he was coming for a good four seconds or so. He knew what he was doing.

Bear in mind, also, this whole thing was started by Pedro drilling Garcia in the back.

Bottom line, they're all children and Zimmer and Pedro both should have been ejected. This is why I don't usually watch baseball...
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Post by stupid happy » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:47 am

i felt terribly for zim after seeing that apology press conference, which i'm sure the higher-ups in the yankees organization, if not MLB itself, forced him to hold. it was about as painful to watch as it was to see pedro throw him to the ground. still, i admire him for his apology. now i'd like to hear one from pedro.
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Post by BigMike » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:19 pm

Just saw the fines imposed. $50K for Pedro and $5K for Zimmer. I realize there's a disparity in their salaries, which probably accounts for the difference in the fines, but it does seem a bit bogus. It sounds an awful lot like the referee in the flag football game yesterday who said he flagged one of our players for a penalty because his actions could have hurt a female player who had the ball, but that he wouldn't have imposed the penalty if it had been against a guy. Talk about moral relativism. If it's a penalty, call the penalty, but don't make judgement calls.

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Post by Matty » Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:59 pm

All of what BigMike said, I agree with.
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Post by stupid happy » Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:40 pm

i have that same thought at least 10 times a day, matty. heh heh....
Matty wrote:All of what BigMike said, I agree with.
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Post by BigMike » Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:41 pm

stupid happy wrote:i have that same thought at least 10 times a day, matty. heh heh....
Matty wrote:All of what BigMike said, I agree with.
Yeah, like we talk that much....oh wait...

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Post by stupid happy » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:38 pm

heh heh heh...of course we don't. who are you, again?

"don't cut the red wire" -- ummmmm...from 'the english patient' or from that underwater movie with that cute boy w/blue eyes who's married to amy madigan (the wife in 'field of dreams') and that chick that was in that flick with paul newman and tom cruise? or just a quote from a typical day at work?
BigMike wrote:
stupid happy wrote:i have that same thought at least 10 times a day, matty. heh heh....
Matty wrote:All of what BigMike said, I agree with.
Yeah, like we talk that much....oh wait...
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Post by sdilley14 » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:28 pm

It's totally Zim's fault. He came out charging Pedro and all Pedro did was brush him to the side, trying to avoid him and defend himself in the heat of the moment, and the guy fell. I mean, I feel sorry for the old guy...who likes to see anyone over the age of 45 fall to the ground? But still, Pedro was just sort of playing the role of matador to Zim's bull, and the bullish Zim took a nose dive. Pedro didn't "grab his head and throw him to the ground" like people are making it out to be. Just an unfortunate accident with an old guy falling down, that's all.
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Post by Matty » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:08 pm

sdilley14 wrote:Pedro didn't "grab his head and throw him to the ground" like people are making it out to be.
Yes, he did.

I really don't understand how you can see it as anything else. Arguing over whether or not it was justified, I can see. But you can't deny that he grabbed him and intentionally threw him to the ground. That's exactly what he did.
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